Episode 1

Jesse Favre: If you've ever found yourself being ghosted at work, or even being tempted to be the one who's ghosting somebody else, this is the episode for you. Welcome everybody to the very first episode of Inside the Team with Jesse Favre, a talk show that is on a mission to decode human behavior in the workplace and unlock insights that can create healthier work teams. And dare I say, a healthier world. As a public speaker and a leadership trainer, I have been wanting to get into the messy human part of work, but not in a conference room and not on a PowerPoint deck because, hello. So instead, we are having these conversations over coffee and tea with some of my dearest friends and experts in the fields. Please make sure to like, comment, and subscribe because I hear that that is how YouTube works. And by the way, as much as we are going to cover topics that are related to stress and mental health, this is for educational purposes only. So this should not take the place of therapy. And if you're kind of on the fence about whether or not you want to talk to a licensed professional, I cannot recommend it enough. Now, today we're covering a topic that prior to 2025, I don't think that I ever dreamed I would be talking about in a professional setting. Ghosting. Could it be that this frustrating, anxiety provoking phenomenon has crept its little way into the workplace? Well, unfortunately, some recent research suggests, yes. According to Indeed's 2023 ghosting in hiring reports, 40% of surveyed job candidates in the US said that they had actually been ghosted after a second or third round interview. Now, on the flip side, 78% of job candidates who were surveyed said that they had ghosted an employer in the hiring process prior to 2022. In fact, most people said they felt like it was fair game. So what really happens when communication gets cut off in the workplace, whether this is in the hiring process or this is midway through a workplace project? To answer that question, I am bringing a guest today. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar, a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist. So she really gets ghosting. We are diving into the psychological and emotional aspects of what it means to be ghosted at work. How does it feel to be the first guest? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Very exciting. Exhilarating. Jesse Favre: Oh, good. I was thrilled to have you because this was a topic that kept coming up over and over when people were telling me what was really, really stressing them out at work. And as I was asking my professional network about is there an expert out there on ghosting? Of course your name comes up and I'm looking into your background and I see that you're a sex therapist and I think, of course you are an expert on ghosting. So can you talk to us a little bit about who you are and what you do professionally? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Yeah. So I am a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist. I have a private practice Sankofa Sex Therapy where I work with individuals, couples, and those in all types of constellations of relationships. And my practice is specifically focused on sexuality and relationships. Additionally, I'm a school social worker and a doctoral student. So I'm pretty busy these days. Jesse Favre: All the more reason, I was floored that you were willing to do this. Before we get any further, I just want to make sure that everybody's on the same page about what ghosting actually is. So from a therapist perspective, how would you define this term? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I would define ghosting as the abrupt ending of communication without any warning or no reason given. And it doesn't give any opportunity for closure. Jesse Favre: I know that this is something that comes up for so many people when it comes to online dating. And now we're hearing about this in professional settings, like the hiring process. People talk to me about their managers ghosting them. Do you think that this is some sort of cultural shift or is it that we just have the language to describe this phenomenon? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I think it's a combination of both, but I also think that it is a bit easier to ghost because we are in more of a digital space. Jesse Favre: What's going on maybe emotionally or internally that might be leading somebody to ghost somebody else. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: It could be fear of the response that they may get, whether it is their own fears of rejection, thinking about someone who is beating someone to the punch instead of waiting for, or even giving them the opportunity to tell them something that they may not want to hear. So that fear of rejection as well as an inability to communicate with vulnerability. Vulnerability is so scary, especially in the workplace because we're often working with people that we don't have personal relationships with. And so to risk, vulnerability is not something that a lot of people are willing to venture into. Jesse Favre: On the receiving end of this, what's happening in those moments where you expect a response and you don't have the why or the closure? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: There's so much uncertainty when you are receiving that ghosting behavior. You're wondering, did I do something wrong? Is something wrong with me? If this ghosting behavior is perceived as the norm, I think you may then have lower levels of productivity. Because if I'm not feeling safe enough to communicate with my coworkers or with my managers, what motivates me to do a good job. Jesse Favre: I remember being ghosted and I remember how much real estate that that can take in your brain because you're just searching for the why. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Internalizing it, just thinking that something is wrong with you, that can be incredibly detrimental. Jesse Favre: Absolutely. So let's just say it is in the hiring process, somebody gets ghosted, they thought they had a good relationship with the hiring manager. What would you recommend from a therapist standpoint about how to bounce back from something like that? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: One, I think about how impactful it can be just to send a follow-up email and to ask for clarity regardless of what the decision is, and be gracious, you know, thank you for the opportunity. But also even if you don't get a response from that kind email, reminding yourself that someone else's behavior is not indicative of your character. But it tells so much more about who they are and how they operate than it does about who you are. Jesse Favre: So what happens when it's in a work team? Like you can't get away from this person, even if you would love to never work with them again. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: That re-engagement can be a bit sticky. Just thinking of myself as an employee, I'm someone who encourages open and honest communication even if it's not given. So I'm the person that if I see you in the hallway, I am going to speak. Whereas some people will look to the side, but I'm, good morning. You know, I'm intentionally making you acknowledge my humanity. Jesse Favre: You can't control if somebody ghosts you, but you can control if you say good morning. And from a social contagion standpoint, you would hope that that starts to send a signal that we have a culture where we communicate directly. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Absolutely. Jesse Favre: How do you make sure that you don't inadvertently ghost somebody else? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I'm going to bring up this idea of vulnerability and how scary it can be and understanding that even if you do receive a response, that's not what you're wanting to hear or not what you're expecting to hear, that's not indicative of who you are as a human. It may give guidance for how to operate better or differently in other situations. Jesse Favre: I know you're talking a lot about that self-talk of reminding yourself of your value, reminding yourself of your worth. Are there specific practices or exercises? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I'm thinking about the power of positive affirmations. You know, it doesn't have to be a hokey situation. I think it's so important to remind yourself of who you are and who you want to be. However that looks. Some people may look to religious practices to do that. Some people may have specific affirmations that they write down, but having those types of practices can help you so that even if you don't believe it the first time you say it. Maybe the third time you say it, it becomes something that you believe about yourself. Jesse Favre: How do you get to an affirmation that is healthy, productive and feels accurate enough that you can start to believe that that's true? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Yeah. I'm going to go back to vulnerability. Is that the word of the day? Jesse Favre: I think it is. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Because I think often we're even scared to be vulnerable with ourselves sometimes and really honest about what it is that we're wanting, what it is that we're needing. And a lot of times we have challenges even with asking for what we want or feeling that we have the ability to ask for what we want. So then it can be a challenge to ask for what we want of ourselves, from ourselves, for ourselves. And so being really honest, I think that can be the first step in figuring out what these affirmations can be. If you're taking someone else's affirmation, then it's not true for you. But you have to make something that is true for you. What is your truth? Because mine is going to be different from yours. I've gotta figure that out for myself. Something really concrete that works for me. Jesse Favre: Often when I work with people, they'll say, well, it's easy to believe the self-limiting belief rather than stepping into this place of saying, I am rejecting that narrative and actually I'm worth more. Maybe it's like any other skill that you have to put into practice before this starts to actually feel like it's natural or it's fluent for you. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: 100%. I'm thinking about when I was learning how to ride my bike without the training wheels. I fell so many times, and I was older learning how to ride my bike without my training wheels going to. And I remember like the kids in the neighborhood gathered across the street and they were cheering me on. But just thinking about it, I fell, but I got back up. I fell, but I got back up. And I think sometimes with this idea of affirming yourself, we're wanting it to stick the first time when we've gotta find our own balance. You know, the training wheels gave us balance, and unfortunately society reinforces those negative messages and they can feel like the training wheels. But when you take the training wheels off and you're looking to support yourself with your own balance, it can feel scary and you might fall, but you can get back up and find your own balance. Jesse Favre: So good. So good. Is there anything that is surprising about ghosting? Any unexpected dynamic that we need to kind of unearth here? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I think it's important for us to understand that if someone ghosts someone, that doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Now that may be something that's uncomfortable because if you are ghosted, you may want to say that person is an awful person. They may need to work on their communication skills, but that doesn't mean that they're a bad person. Jesse Favre: Wow. That's a lot to soak in, even just going through past memories of being ghosted because you're right, it's so easy to slap a label on the person and say they're just not a good person. I feel like it actually takes less energy to just think that, versus going maybe what I'm seeing is the tip of the iceberg and I don't actually know what's under the surface for this person. And maybe there is at least some acknowledgement of their humanity in this situation as well. It's not to excuse it, but it is to say maybe this is a reflection of some things that are going on in their life that I don't fully understand. And it's also maybe not my role to get it. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Exactly. Jesse Favre: Exactly. It's not my role. Are there any other people within a work team that you feel like you should be getting involved with? Or is this something that you should be handling on your own? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I think it depends on the level. There's a difference between not responding to an email where maybe you had an exchange and a response wasn't necessary, but it would be courteous for them to give a response, versus someone not responding and you're needing to collaborate on a project. That's a different level. And so if it's a situation, the latter you may have to get a manager or someone else involved. If you have been trying to reach out to get this thing done and this other person is not responding. Jesse Favre: So there's this discernment piece around, is there a dependency with this other person? Because if you could move on and there's no business outcome, limit exposure. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Absolutely. Jesse Favre: But if you can't limit exposure, you're going to have to come up with a plan B. So having that, if then plan, if this, you know, attempt to reengage with this person doesn't go well, then who do I reach for support? You know, one other thing I would throw out there, because I do a lot of employee assistance work is if somebody has an employee assistance program, what a good outside resource to get a therapist. Or even if you're a manager, do a management consultation if you have that available. When you're in a dynamic of ghosting, it's so painful in the moment that it's almost hard to think straight. And even just hearing you as the voice of reason right now, it reminds me of the role that a therapist can play in a conversation with somebody about really being able to just objectively look at the situation and come up with a reasonable path forward so that you can take care of yourself along the way too. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because ghosting does not feel good. Jesse Favre: No. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: It doesn't. Jesse Favre: I think a lot of people may wonder if there is ever a situation where ghosting is in fact appropriate. Is there ever a time in place where you would say, yup, that is the right call. And so I'd really like to play a game. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Alright, I'm down. Let's do it. Jesse Favre: Okay. So we are going to dive into a game that is called ghost or not ghost. And this is really to get into the gray areas of communication and explore this idea of whether or not it's ever okay to ghost somebody in a professional setting. So the way this is going to work is I'm going to read some real life scenarios, okay. And I would love to get your expert opinion. Would you ghost, not ghost or it depends? You accept a job offer, but then you get a better job opportunity. The first company now reaches out to you to finalize the details, do you ghost or not ghost? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Don't ghost. Jesse Favre: What's the why? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Well, the reason is because the world is incredibly small and you never know when you may need to share a community with that previous company. And you never want to burn a bridge. Also it's just polite. They may have already created an email address for you. You know, done all of those other tech things and for you to just not respond, it doesn't feel good for the other person. But also it may then affect you professionally moving forward. Jesse Favre: I grew up doing acting. And I remember just being in this room where my director said, you never know if somebody in this room with you is going to be your director in the future. And then strategically, we heard earlier that a lot of employers are actually ghosting people who've already gone through second, third round interviews. What if your other jobs gone? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Exactly. Exactly. Jesse Favre: Whoops. Yeah. Okay. So that's a definite, don't ghost. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Don't do it. Jesse Favre: Don't ghost. Okay. A colleague repeatedly messages you outside of work hours, even after you've clearly set boundaries. Twice. They just sent you a third message. Do you ghost or not ghost? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: So I'm on the fence. I have a don't ghost, but I also have as, it depends. So my, it depends, I think the only time that it may be appropriate to ghost someone is if it's related to safety. And if there's a situation where their repeated messaging feels unsafe, then you may need to ghost them, but you report it in some other way so it's not a full ghosting. There's still a follow-up. And does that mean that you then talk to your manager about this inappropriate messaging that you've set a boundary for? However, that can look. So that's where my, it depends, comes in, but it's still not complete ghosting because if you have set that boundary, there still needs to be a follow-up. Jesse Favre: Totally. Because you can have this boundary and if you don't enforce it, yeah. It's just a preference. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I said setting that firm boundary and if they're not respecting it, possibly taking it to another level. Jesse Favre: I know for myself, when it comes to boundaries, it's been so helpful for me to script things out. If this person pushes this boundary, then how would I respond? And it's not like I memorize the script. It's not like I read off of a script. That would be awkward. Maybe a little on brand for me. But what it helps me do is just think it through and then in the moment it's so much more comfortable because it's not catching me off guard. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I script as well. Jesse Favre: Oh, you do scripts? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: I do, I do. I think through, what would I say? How could I say this? Because a lot of times our brains just immediately go into fight, flight, freeze or fawn. And we're stuck in our amygdala and can't access the prefrontal cortex going to. So yeah, I prepare. Jesse Favre: The power of scripting. Okay. A coworker sends you unsolicited feedback on a presentation you gave which you ignored. But now email number two is coming in with even more thoughts. Ghost or don't ghost? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Don't ghost. There's just so many professional ways to say, quit emailing me. Thank you so much. This is not feedback that I'm needing at this moment. But I appreciate your willingness to provide assistance. I will let you know if I need further assistance. Jesse Favre: Thank you. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Best. Jesse Favre: Best. All the best. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Yes. Jesse Favre: What I love about what you said is you're actually keeping the communication going in the sense that maybe you will actually need this person's feedback later, in which case you could ask some very specific questions. These are the things I'm working on. What are your thoughts on X, Y, Z? But it's not like opening Pandora's box without your permission. Okay. You're in the final rounds, exciting, of an interview and you bring up work life balance. And the hiring manager says to you, that's a really interesting question and I didn't expect to get that. And now you're feeling like you do not want to work at this place, ghost or don't ghost. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: You know what I'm going to say? Jesse Favre: Strong theme. There's a strong theme. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: There's a strong theme. Don't ghost, don't do it. Even if you decide like, this is not the place that I want to work, it could still yield a very interesting conversation. Jesse Favre: What if they think it's an interesting question because you are in fact the first person to bring it up. But like they're thinking, what an interesting question. I wish that I would've asked questions like that in interviews. And so maybe there is no issue here. Maybe this is the perfect job opportunity and you would've just lost that if you cut off communication. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Absolutely. Yeah. Jesse Favre: So I have to ask, I know what the theme is, but is there ever a scenario where you are going to enthusiastically hold up the ghost sign? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Where I would say ghost is if safety is a concern. However, if safety is a concern, there still needs to be some follow-up. Maybe not you directly with the person. But does that mean you need to then contact someone else because this person is threatening your safety? Jesse Favre: When you use the word safety, is this physical safety, emotional safety? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: All of the above. I think a lot of times, unfortunately the way our systems are set up, they don't prioritize emotional safety. But I think it's something that's important to consider in these situations. If you don't feel emotionally safe. Specifically in a work environment, if someone makes comments that are off color or maybe not even directly threatening, but they are insulting to an identity that you hold. Or even if it's an invisible identity that you hold and you don't feel emotionally safe, then that's when you need to report that situation. You don't necessarily have to continue to engage with that person. So that could be ghosting in a way, but you're handling it in a different way. Jesse Favre: This is not always such a cut and dry issue. There are actually some situations where ghosting could be appropriate, but as we have explored, it's the minority of situations that we have talked through today. It seems like it's really in situations where safety is coming up as a concern. De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: For sure. Jesse Favre: So De-Andrea, this has been an absolute pleasure to have you today. Truly, I have learned so much. I've had all the goosebumps. I am very confident that there are people who want to know how to get in touch with you. So what is the best way for people to follow you and your work? De-Andrea Blaylock-Solar: Yeah, people can contact me through my website, sankofasextherapy.com. And that's S-A-N-K-O-F-A Sextherapy.com. And I am @SankofaSex on Instagram and Blue Sky. Jesse Favre: So if you enjoy today's episode, please make sure to like, comment, and subscribe because we have so much more coming soon. Just remember, you need to keep connecting, keep communicating, and we will catch you next time, Inside the Team.