Episode 6

Jesse Favre: We're going to talk about healthy boundaries. How do you set these boundaries? How do you enforce these boundaries? We're getting into all of it? Welcome back to Inside the Team with Jesse Favre, a talk show where we decode human behavior at work to promote a healthier work life. Before we jump in, please make sure to like, comment, and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Today we're talking about boundaries. One of the most important yet misunderstood workplace skills. This is so much more than just work-life balance. We are talking about respect and communication and understanding where your work ends and where another person begins. To unpack it all, we're going to bring in a very special guest, Dr. Wendy DuCassé, a higher ed administrator and professor. Prior to her current role, she worked in different nonprofit spaces as a social worker. So she really understands boundary setting and enforcement. So we're going to talk about what healthy boundaries look like. Let's dive in. All right. Welcome, Wendy, to Inside the Team. It's such a pleasure to have you here. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Jesse Favre: Yes. And I just have to be clear for everybody who's watching this, I have been fangirling, Wendy. I just did the math the other day. I think it's been 15 years. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Has it been 15? Jesse Favre: I think it's been 15 years. So I wanted to bring you on because when it comes to workplace skills, I feel like one of the most important skills that somebody can have is figuring out how to set and enforce boundaries. But that skill is also one of the most mysterious workplace skills. So before we even get into how to do it, how do you even define what a boundary is? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I think about boundaries, kind of like a door. Doors serve a lot of purposes. They can keep things in, keep things out. We have various types of doors. You know, you have a car door, you have a house door, you have, you know doors to your office. I can go on about doors. But when I think about boundaries, I think about them in a sense that it's a door that allows things in or out. It allows you to maintain a space and you're sending a message of this is my space. And so that can be translated to this is how I allow people to treat me. This is how I treat others, and vice versa. So think about boundaries, kind of like a doorway into connection with you and other people. Jesse Favre: So what are the essentials, if you had to break it down? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Clearly articulated, consistent, and also being honest with people when you feel like they've crossed them. And being honest with yourself when people have crossed them. Because sometimes we get into this, oh, well it wasn't really that big of a deal, but I have this discomfort in my belly, or I'm dreading the next interaction with this person, or in this situation. because it was clear to me internally that it was a violation, but I didn't say anything about it. Jesse Favre: So I actually hired this coach to help me with boundaries a couple years ago. And I remember thinking that the hardest part was going to be writing the boundary or like saying it, but it was the enforcement piece. And so, yeah, I totally appreciate why people kind of clam up around that because it is hard. You feel like you've already asserted yourself, and then suddenly there's maybe like a habitual line stepper, as one of our previous guests liked to call it. So I'm curious, what are some of the mistakes or maybe limitations to boundaries that you've seen play out in a work environment in the past? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Oh, wow. How much time do we have? Jesse Favre: Talk to me. Talk to me. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Well, I definitely could say just sometimes when you're new in a working environment, you want to establish yourself as likable. You want to establish yourself as dependable. You want to reassure people that they made the right decision to hire you or to bring you on the team, or if you are advancing in a role that you did the right thing. I am really qualified for this. And I think what can happen sometimes is people overstep themselves in boundaries that they had previously set in order to make themselves seem like they belong. So there should not be any questions about that. So I would say that's one. I would say not establishing what you're comfortable with and not comfortable with upfront. And not having those conversations with your team. If you are moving to a new team or if you are brand new to an organization, making sure that people have a clear understanding of what you're comfortable with as far as, you know, can you call me? Can you text me? Are we social media friends? Do I work on weekends? Do I take calls on weekends? What all that looks like. And so I would say that when people haven't clearly communicated what they expect and what's reasonable within their roles, and then also if there's a step over that, not saying something early. Jesse Favre: The very first piece you talk about was around the likability piece, right? And that makes total sense because you can feel so vulnerable at work. Yeah. And you want to be part of an in-group. There's a feeling of safety with that. So I know that a lot of people that I have worked with have told me that they have a very hard time saying no for that reason. What's the advice that you would give somebody that can't get that word out of their mouth? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Do it anyway. Jesse Favre: Goosebumps. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: You're uncomfortable with the no. And you're uncomfortable with it. I'm continuing to do this thing that I hate or that I don't like, or that I don't want to, or I'm selling myself out in a way that is very much encroaching on my boundaries. It's crossed over that boundary, and I don't feel like I have control. And I know that I'm a part of the solution to that. So I say to people, say no anyway. Do it scared. Do it knowing that you saying no may upset some people. Like if people are used to you always saying yes, if they're used to disrespecting that boundary, if they're used to you accommodating whatever it is that they need, whenever they need it, they are going to be upset, disappointed, whatever big emotion they have, because they're not going to get the same version of you anymore. And you have to be prepared for that and accept that that is going to be part of the process. If you want things to be different, you have to do something that's different and that's going to feel uncomfortable, and do it anyway. Jesse Favre: So for people who have tried in the past and maybe didn't feel successful in the enforcement of boundaries, what would you tell them to be thinking about in that preparation process of having this very courageous conversation? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I would ask them to think about the outcome that they want. What is it they want to reclaim for themselves? Is it more time? Is it peace of mind? Is it confidence in knowing that they're making the best decision for themselves? So visualize and think about what it is that they want out of saying no, have like a real coaching session with yourself. I'm getting ready to do something that's very difficult for myself. I can handle it. I can, whatever the outcome is, I will be able to handle it. And then in the midst of the conversation, think about the fact that when you say no to someone, they may be like, what do you mean? No, you've always, or whatever. Think about it, I don't owe them an explanation for that. My no is a firm boundary. I am making the best decision for me. I'm making it for a reason. This is all kind of your internal dialogue and your self coaching. And then after that, after the conversation has been had, that was tough. I survived it. This will be fine. And also knowing that you can do it again, knowing that there may be people who are disappointed in the decision, but at the end of it all, it's about reclaiming yourself. Reclaiming that boundary and making sure that you are making decisions that you're always going to be comfortable with, regardless of if someone around you is not comfortable with it, or they're not happy with you. Reestablishing yourself in that boundary. Jesse Favre: You are such a pro in the realm of boundaries. And so I am curious, just knowing you, like, when you look back on your own career, have you had any boundary flops that you wish you could redo? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Oh my goodness. Again, how much time do we have ? I would, I would definitely say so. I know for me, being a brand new practitioner, starting out 20 plus years ago, I wanted to establish myself. I wanted people to know that I was trustworthy, that I was competent, that I was qualified, that they could depend on me. And also in thinking about wanting to advance. I felt like there were times that I had to say yes and be present and be available and accessible so much more than I really wanted to because I wanted my name to be remembered in rooms that I wanted to be in someday. And so I sold myself short in a lot of ways. I was working ridiculous hours. I was always answering my phone, always answering my email, and none of this was compensated because I was salaried. So anything extra and above and beyond, it was just, I was doing it and I was miserable. I was tired, I was stressed. I was never off. I was never relaxing. And I was feeling really, really burned out. And so I started to have to pull back. I was like, something has to give. I can't keep operating like this and enjoy the work that I do. And knowing the work that I was doing at the time was really stressful and I was never off. So I didn't have a chance to decompress. You know, we talk now a lot about self-care. There was no self-care. I was burning it at both ends, and it was just not good. While it's not said out loud, you have to do that. And directly you get this messaging that you must do all these extra things and make yourself available in all these ways. If you want praise, if you want promotion, if you want recognition. And as someone who's new to your work, you feel like you need to do those things because there's not somebody saying, calm down, chill out. You don't have to go to this thing. Or you don't need to have your phone on all the time. Instead, it's more like encouraged, but not forced. But you feel like it is. Jesse Favre: I feel like engagement is such a tricky thing. Because on the one hand, you want people to feel that urge to sort of lean into their work, but there's a difference between this kind of leaning in and this is what I'm hearing. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Leaning into falling over. Jesse Favre: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's exactly the repercussions that we have to be aware of. And as you said, yeah, there's this self-care piece, this wellbeing piece, but you also mentioned this is about having longevity in your career. Can you actually sustain this work? And if we're thinking of a bigger picture about how to create healthy work environments, you have to have somebody who can actually keep up that job. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Exactly. Jesse Favre: So for people who are self-identified, people's boundaries are tough. What's the one thing that you would say to somebody who feels that way? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I always tell people to do the work around where that comes from. Whether that's therapy or coaching, or taking some time to journal and figure out why I am this way? Why do I feel like I need to do this? And a lot of times in our families, in school, in a lot of environments, we are socialized to say yes, even in spite of ourselves. And even in spite of discomfort. It means, you know, things like, oh, that person, that boy is teasing you because they like you. Or, you know, share even if you don't want to share. And we continue to do that. That message carries on into the workforce. We see people around us being praised for taking on extra. They get the plaque that says the extra mile. They get the promotion and we want that. And so we think, well, I have to be like that too, even though I really don't want to, but I know that that's how I have to play the game. And so we're kind of clashing with ourselves. I know this isn't what I want to do, but this is what I need to do, if I want to have longevity in this career, get a promotion, be respected. And it comes at the cost of I'm not following, and respecting a boundary that I know needs to exist. And I don't know how to get there because I've never had it that way. So I would say definitely doing some work around how to do that, where it comes from, how to interrupt that cycle so that you don't continue it with yourself. And if you do move into a leadership role, you're not pushing that agenda onto other people, because that can happen too. We become leaders as people pleasers, as people who have horrible boundaries. And we model that for other people. And we hire other people. So it just continues that same cycle. And we want to get out of that because we want to have longevity in our careers. We want to be healthy in our working environments. We don't want to have turnover. And we don't want to make mistakes that can get us sued or fired. When you have poor boundaries, you're more likely to be burned out. And when you're burned out, you make poor decisions and you also don't make decisions that elevate your work. Whether you're working directly with clients, maybe as a therapist, or if you're working producing some kind of product. It's not going to be your best because you have burned yourself out because you haven't honored the boundaries that you deserve to have. Jesse Favre: I just heard this phrase the other day. More is caught than taught. And so I think when it comes to boundaries, you could tell your team, oh, make sure that you let me know. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Take care of yourself. Jesse Favre: Exactly. You take care of yourself, practice self-care, it's good for you. But if you struggle with your own boundaries, that is what they're going to pick up on. It's a signal that a lot of people will replicate. Because they look up to you. So we're talking a lot about individual skills, but I'm curious from your perspective, how does culture and team norms fit into whether or not a boundary's going to be respected or not? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: In theory, they should align what we say we do and what we believe should be matched with action. Like, if in the manual it says, this is how we approach this as a culture, as a community, as a team, as an organization, I should walk in and see that. But that doesn't always happen. We have this mindset that we have to hustle and go, go, go, go, go. We have to keep moving, have to keep moving, because if we're not moving, if we're not acting, then we are missing out on something. And if it's related to competition, if it's related to mission, if we're not moving, then that gives a perception that we are not focused on what we're supposed to be doing. And so as that trickles down directly to people who are carrying out the business then they feel like they have to continuously be going to. And then it's just this repetitive circle and cycle that no one is resting and everyone feels like they have to constantly be on. And that means your boundaries are non-existent. Jesse Favre: How do you set boundaries around the work life balance piece that you're speaking to? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I would say it's different for every person. I think depending on where you are in your career, depending on where you are in your life, you may have different priorities for your time. 20 years ago when I started doing this work, I had more free time to just kind of do a lot more things. But now I'm in a different space and, you know, being a parent, you know, being married, doing all these other things. So I have more things that I want to focus my attention on. And people who are younger in their careers, and maybe younger in age too, they may find themselves having other things as their priority. And it kind of depends on where you are career wise and what your interests are. Are you just learning or are you established in where you want to be and are you kind of transitioning out? So some of that impacts the way you set up and the way that you think about what is priority and how much time I am going to devote to different things. Jesse Favre: So you have to know yourself first. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Yeah. You have to know yourself first. You have to know what you're comfortable with. You have to know what is in alignment with you personally and the organization or business, wherever you're working. You're talking about boundaries. You have to think about who I am, who do I aspire to be as a person, as you know, someone in this work? And how do those things go together? And what happens when that's misaligned? And sometimes that's the issue with boundaries. We find ourselves being asked to do things that don't align with either my personality or something that does not make sense for the work that I'm doing. Jesse Favre: So I'm sure that in some cases these conversations are happening with higher ups. How does that work? What are you allowed to set a boundary around versus not? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I would always defer back to my job description. I would defer back to if you have a profession that has a code of ethics or professional standards, and I would lean into those. So if I was being asked to do things that were outside of that, then I would talk to them about whether there needs to be an adjustment to what the duties are, or if this is something that can be shared. Or if it's something that's a safety issue or something that I'm not comfortable doing, let them know. I can't do that. I'm uncomfortable with that. And, you know, these are the reasons. And if they don't agree with that, then I would say following whatever protocols are in place, if it's going to HR, if it's a labor board issue or any of those things, or if they want to add an additional task, then we come back to the table and negotiate salary. We negotiate things like fringe benefits. We negotiate remote work or any of those kinds of things. So it could be a situation where we revisit my contract and we talk about what my work duties are going to look like. Because if you're adding something on top of everything I'm already doing, we need to talk about how I can be successful in that and what resources I need in order for that to happen, or I don't take that on. Jesse Favre: I love that you brought up the job description piece. I think a lot of times we look at something like that and we say, well, this is the truth. It's set in stone. It is what it is. And I've also found that in some situations you can revisit that. And really what I'm hearing from you is you're framing this as, in a situation where I'm going to take these things on, how can we make sure that I can be successful not just for myself but for the organization? And so then you're really on the same page in terms of what that ultimate outcome should be. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Yeah. How do I make this a win-win for all of us? And it's setting a boundary. You're saying, I'm willing to do this in these conditions. I can do this. I need this from you in order to be successful and to make us all look good. Right. So sometimes setting a boundary is something as simple as that. It's not always no, it could be Yes, if. Jesse Favre: Yeah, I love that. Yes. If, right. Okay. I think this conversation around work-life balance is so timely because I know at one point in time we worked during our typical business hours, right? And that might be nine to five for somebody. And now we live in this very different world where I think a lot of people are always feeling like they're on. Talk to me about that. And how does boundary setting fit into being able to take care of yourself in a 24/7 world? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I think part of what we're seeing is like a direct relationship with how readily available and accessible we all are, thanks to social media. It's a beautiful thing. You can see whatever you want whenever you want, that's a gift. And also you can see whatever you want whenever you want. That can be a challenge because there's no off switch to any of that. Some of us remember not having cell phones. The only people who had cell phones or pagers. I'm going to take it back. Jesse Favre: I love the pagers though. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I never had one. I wanted one. I wanted one and I'm bitter about it. But, you know the only people who had those were, you know, like physicians or attorneys or people who were in, you know, high power roles. But as those things became more accessible, we all had them. And we started using them more for not just social life, but also for work life. You had an on-call phone, or if, you know, your boss gave you their number for emergencies and everyone had each other's numbers, then it kind of became part of the culture that we use these. And at first it was like, okay, we use these during business hours, but then people started using them a little bit more. And then starting with email, the same kind of pattern happened. So once we had that happening, and then kind of moving forward to five years ago in 2020 when COVID hit, we all started to see each other in a different way. Because everybody was working from home. So you could kind of see what was going on in their background. And so in some ways, boundaries shifted a little bit during that period too, because everyone was home and everyone was trying to figure out how to get work done in the midst of their home. Whether they were caregiving and they had children who were trying to do remote learning and they were taking care of family and all that. We continued that and we never came back from it. So I think that has added an additional layer on that people have to think about what is my standard in all of these areas? And when we're talking about businesses and organizations, what is going to be the real standard that we're going to stand by here and make sure that people don't feel like they have to go beyond that? And that there's not necessarily a reward or punishment tied to if someone is not comfortable sharing their phone number or being a part of the group text after hours or something like that, because they may not want to do that. So I would say that from a leadership perspective, revisiting what using technology looks like in the workplace and how to make sure that there is a comfortable standard that most folks can work with. And then for employees within that feeling comfortable addressing and speaking up when you don't feel comfortable with a particular standard. And making sure that it's clearly articulated as one of your boundaries. Jesse Favre: I love the idea of taking a strategic pause on this because I would've predicted that we would slow down and reevaluate things after the pandemic. And what I've heard from most people is that the pace is just getting faster. But at the time I remember thinking, oh, this is great. Everybody's working from home. I have all this balance. But with that, there were a lot of changes and expectations that happened in terms of your availability. And it's a great time to really think about what we want to do with the information we now have about how things have worked before. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately because people are so accessible, they expect a quick turnaround. They expect that if they send you a text or an email or whatever, you respond super fast and you may be engaged in something else, or you might be at lunch or off that day or what have you. And then there's the expectation. And then if you don't see it, then people are wondering, well, why didn't you do it? What's taking you so long? We've created a culture that makes boundaries optional, and we want to get back to where they are, the standard and the norm. Jesse Favre: I would imagine from a culture perspective, it becomes so much more powerful when the team gets together and says, let's just outline this stuff. What does it mean to be so important that we have to contact somebody after hours? Do we have agreement on this piece? I think for me, that would make me feel more comfortable enforcing that because everybody's on the same page. And so I imagine that this can get into some juicy conversations with teams about how they want to proceed. Speaking of juicy conversations, I have prepared a list of some actual boundaries based on some real life scenarios. And I would love to get your feedback on how you're feeling about the quality of these boundaries. So how do you feel about playing a game? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Well, let's do it. Jesse Favre: Okay. We're doing it. We're doing it. Okay. Dr. Wendy, here's the rules. So we're going to play a game called the label that limits. I'm going to verbalize a boundary to you and then you've got a whiteboard in front of you. I want you to write down one word that comes to mind when you hear this boundary, and then I want to hear why. Please don't call me on the weekend unless it's urgent. Let's see it. Reasonable. Okay. Talk to me about why. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I think it establishes, these are the times you should call me. If it's an emergency in this work role, then call me on the weekend. If not, then we can talk about it on Monday. It's not pressing, then there's no reason to call about it. You might define what is an emergency. You are going to be out. There's been a death on the team. There is, you know, something happening in the building and people can't come in. I would say if they feel like they just absolutely need to get it out of their system, they can send you an email and you'll respond the next working day. Jesse Favre: Beautiful. Yeah. I usually won't respond after 8:00 PM. It just depends on what I'm doing. Ah, confusing. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Confusing. Because if you are giving them any inkling that you are available, sometimes it's confusing for them to not be able to get in contact with you and to receive a response from you if they need something. If they have a question that's work related. So it needs to be tightened up a little bit, I think. Jesse Favre: Yeah. I could see a lot of people thinking that they're being accommodating by saying, well, it just depends. But what, in this case, that's not necessarily kind either. Because then what if you're like, no, I wasn't available. I'm happy to help with your project, but I'll need two days' notice. Not always possible. Why? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: It depends on your job. It depends on the demands of the workplace. If there is a firm deadline that is set. So we'll need to think about how reasonable it is to expect two days notice. We, in some industries, can't give two days notice if something falls apart and they're the person who is the fixer of the thing that falls apart, they may have to shift something else. Jesse Favre: Okay. So business needs to be a part of this. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Agree. Jesse Favre: I'd appreciate it if we kept our conversations focused on work topics during the day. Ouch. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Ouch. Jesse Favre: Talk to me about it. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I think there's definitely a line of things that you may not want to cross. You know, it's challenging to talk about things like politics and religion and certain big topics and concepts. Right. But do you have a dog? Can I talk to you about your dog? Do you play sports? What are you interested in outside of work that we may be able to find some common ground as people to people. We're in a workplace together with people 40 ish hours a week. So it would be nice that I know something more about you other than you are really good at spreadsheets. And I think that it helps to form connections and relationships and partnerships with people that while we are primarily in this for work, we can also be friendly. I think it's important to know things about each other so that you can celebrate with each other. And just knowing what your commonalities might be is really helpful in the workplace I think Jesse Favre: It's not okay for you to raise your voice at me in meetings. Yes. I strongly agree. Okay. Why? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Because you set a firm line in the sand of how you expect to be treated. We can have this conversation if you're not yelling. So I think that the person set a good boundary and that's the way you should do it. Jesse Favre: Of all these boundaries I've talked about, that's the one I wish I had in my toolkit at the start of my career. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Absolutely. Jesse Favre: There were so many times, I think to the point that you said earlier about wanting to be liked or being tough enough for the culture that I was in conversations that should have been ended. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Absolutely. Jesse Favre: And so I love the idea of thinking this stuff through when you're not in an urgent situation so that you have that plan in place. You feel so much more comfortable in the moment to say, actually we need to call it, let's try when we can both be professional. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Absolutely. Jesse Favre: Okay. Last limit. Sure. I can stay late, but I'll need to adjust tomorrow's start time. Ah, yes. If it's a win-win. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: I am willing to do the thing that you ask if we can adjust so that I get some time back. That I think helps with some of the burnout that I was alluding to a little bit earlier. And it also sets some parameters around the ways in which I can help if I also get something beneficial about this too. Jesse Favre: Okay. So we are circling back to the Yes, if. And I'm thinking about our conversation earlier about people who struggled to say no. What an interesting alternative. Yes, if you can consider a condition. Right. And that might be easier to just get out of your mouth. Yeah. Beautiful. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Yeah, you might say, let me think about it and then come back. I want to come back to this conversation. Let me think about it. And if it's possible to have a yes. What is the if and then come back and say, you know, I thought about it and these are some things that I would like to consider. Jesse Favre: You just changed my life for the better. And she has been for 15 years, folks. Well Wendy, thank you so much for playing that game. Dr. Wendy DuCassé: It was fun. Jesse Favre: It was fun. I'm glad you could label those limits so we can start to actually think through how we script this stuff out and put this into practice. I am positive that there are going to be people who want to get in touch or follow your work. So what's the best way? Dr. Wendy DuCassé: Linkedin. I am there under my name Dr. Wendy DuCassé. D U capital C A S S E. Jesse Favre: Okay folks. So just remember when it comes to boundary setting, you have to know what matters to you first. Use those yes ifs when it's feasible, and we will catch you next time Inside the Team.