Episode 2

Jesse Favre: Have you ever tried to keep up with work while you're caring for a loved one who's struggling with mental health, or perhaps you're supporting a colleague who's in the same position? If so, this episode is for you. Welcome back to Inside the Team with Jesse Favre. This is a talk show where we get into the very human aspects of work that often don't get much airtime. This episode is no exception. Before we get started, please make sure to subscribe to our channel. That way you'll be the first to know of any new episodes that get dropped. Also, if this episode resonates, please make sure to like and comment so others can find this as well. I do want to share upfront this episode gets into some really sensitive and personal topics around suicide and grief. So please, please, please take care of yourself as you watch this. And if you would like to talk to somebody, whether you're going through mental health challenges or supporting someone who is, you can call or text 988, which is the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline within the US. If you're outside of the US, please look into local mental health services and make sure that you're taking care of yourself. This episode is for educational purposes only, and I can't recommend reaching out to someone enough. To put things into perspective, according to the CDC, in 2023, 49,000 people died by suicide in the US. That's about one person in every 11 minutes. And of course, behind these statistics are real people and their workplaces and their families and their communities that will never quite be the same. Today I am joined by a very special guest, Saroni Kundu. She is a mental health advocate. She's a business owner in the mental health space, and she's also the author of a recently published book called Hope Starts At Home. She's here to really get into how she was balancing work with family mental health challenges, as well as sharing her experience coping with grief, with the loss of her sister who died by suicide. She does all of this work in her memory and in her honor. She's also going to offer some advice for how to bring up mental health at work, how to ask for what you need, and how to get the flexibility and support and accommodations that are so crucial in a situation like this. Let's get started. Well, Saroni, it is an honor to have you here on Inside the Team. Before we get too deep into this, could you tell us a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do? Saroni Kundu: Of course. It's such an honor to be here, Jesse. I'm from an IT background, so I've been in the technology industry for over 20 years. Most recently I became a business owner, so I own a franchise mental health clinic with my husband, and we've been running. It is our third year running. And now I also published a book. So I'm a published author now. Jesse Favre: Congratulations. Saroni Kundu: Thank you. Jesse Favre: And it's a wonderful book. So I know in the book you talk a lot about your family's journey with mental health challenges. How does that fit into what you're doing now? Because you've had a huge career shift. Saroni Kundu: I feel like my life has sort of brought me here through the different directions that I've been moving. Even though I'm from a technology background, software engineering, and all of that, you know, I moved to the whole line of user experience and customer experience, which is really to do with human behavior as it interacts with technology. When certain things happened in my family post pandemic, during the pandemic, and this opportunity came up where we could be part of the solution of the mental healthcare system, we wanted to be part of the solution. And so we sort of just jumped in, you know, and the rest is history, as they say. You could say that I apply the same principles that I do in my career as a technologist into my clinic. So everything I do is based on clinician experience. If you take care of that, it really does translate into great client experience. Jesse Favre: In the book, you talk about your family's journey, and I highly recommend that everybody reads this book, but to give a reader's digest of what your family has gone through, how would you describe that? Saroni Kundu: We were all in a very dark time during the lockdown, and everyone was very concerned about catching the virus, but what was brewing underneath that was a lot of people around the world that suffered mental health challenges anyway, it escalated. So I would say my sister who lived in Canada, she really spiraled and she went through severe mental health struggles in the summer of 2021 is when she attempted suicide for the very first time. And that was a huge wake up call for me and for my family. Around the same time, my son also showed signs of self harm. And so that was a huge thing that happened at the same time. Six months later, my daughter showed signs of severe anxiety. So all of that was happening at the same time. So I didn't have any choice but to really wake up and figure this whole thing out. Jesse Favre: I even remember before you had published your book, you just described it almost like the book was writing itself. It was like that story had to get told. I think the work that you're doing is so courageous. It's so inspirational. I would like to talk about your sister a little and just understand who she was better. Saroni Kundu: Soutomi was a kind and soulful and very funny person. She made people laugh. She was goofy. But she also had very big emotions. She took heart to a lot of things that she did. She volunteered a lot. She was a professional occupational therapist. Even for her to get to that point in her career was nothing short of a miracle, like how she did that. You know, we both were raised in southern Africa and for her to, you know, come to Canada, get her license and just start from scratch to where she was. You know, people looking from the outside in, they would've said she had a beautiful life. She had friends. She had a wonderful life. When she passed on in 2022 December after her second suicide attempt. My husband and I went to Canada and we called a celebration of life because that's what she wanted in her will, and they were close to like 60 people that attended. So contrary to people's belief, when they think about someone who's died by suicide, they think, well, she must have been so lonely. She must have been so. The thing is that she was not alone. She had so much support. She had so many good, good relationships and friends, but being lonely is subjective because when it comes to mental illness there is that part of the brain that tells the patient that they are lonely, that there is a void. What she was diagnosed with after her first attempt, and only after that, was borderline personality disorder. So for her to find out after her first attempt and live for 16 months, I can't describe it rather than say it was a blessing, because it was a blessing for her. She finally could give a name to all the things that she'd been going through and feeling, but couldn't voice. Right. So after her first attempt, and she learned what it was, she was very vocal about it. She was vocal about depression and how that's a symptom of what was actually wrong. You know, going back to her journals, you know, way back before the diagnosis, all the things she wrote down were actually symptoms. So when people talk about mental illness, mental health struggles, you know, you always hear like, well, can't you just snap out of it? Or just go do some yoga or meditation. She did all of that, by the way. But like, you know, when you have a tumor or you have a heart problem, you have symptoms. The same goes with mental illness. Those symptoms happen to be feelings, emotions. That's where I think people really lack awareness, and I know I did. On how you translate those symptoms to that something might actually be clinically wrong, that you have to actually get clinical help. And even though she was getting therapy done, she wasn't getting the right type of therapy. When somebody says to you, yeah, I went for therapy. It didn't really work. That's a red flag. It's like you saying, yeah, I went to the cardiologist but didn't really find anything, but I am still in pain. Yeah, you don't continue your life with heart pain, do you? Like you know, you have to go and go to another specialist, go to a, you know, so we didn't know that. So the fact that my sister would say that, or she would say, yeah, it's still the same if we had known if we had the knowledge, we are like, no, you need to go to a CCA psychiatrist, or you need to see a specialist or something. Right. and not just be like, okay, well this is just how it is, you know? And I believe a lot of families go through that and they get stuck or they don't know how to have the conversation or, you know, even know what to do next. So I'm hoping my book just helps with that, saying, it's not the end of the road. Like, there is hope and you can keep going. Like, you have to keep talking about it, educating yourself and figuring out that next step and not giving up. And also, if you are going to therapy, that's a great first step. You've gone to therapy. You're doing it right. If your diagnosis is not correct, that's something that educating yourself to know, I have to advocate for myself. Right. It's not that there's something wrong with me, but there's something that I'm not addressing. It's like when you have a physical illness, if my fever keeps coming back and the doctor keeps saying, well, this is just so and so, but I'm like, yeah, but you gave me the medication, it didn't work. I still have, you know what I mean? So you have to keep advocating and asking, and it's not easy. It is not. Especially when you have mental health challenges. And that's why I'm such an advocate for early intervention. Like I said, you know, I just mentioned my children because I could with my sister being an adult, you can't get involved. But with children, you can. So understanding your teen and your tween and, and just saying, no, I'm not going to just, you know, brush this off as a teenage thing. I'm actually going to address this. And just keep going and addressing and learning and keep going. And if you are the person that has to show the light, be that person and have the courage. It takes a lot of courage, but there is light and hope on the other side of that fear. Jesse Favre: I love seeing your persistence pay off when I see your son, he speaks so eloquently about self care. I mean, he's such an advocate, so I cannot wait to see what all your family does. It's amazing what impact you clearly had on your kids' life. Now, you mentioned the celebration of life, and the reason it stuck out to me is I just did a seminar related to suicide, and one of the questions that people were struggling with was, what do you say to someone if they come back to work and you're aware of grief, you're aware of, you know, a death in the family by suicide? What helps in those moments? Saroni Kundu: I know everybody's not like how I am or I was at the time. I was extremely honest when my sister attempted suicide, I had to go to Canada. I told my boss that my manager, I said my sister attempted suicide, I need to go. And she was extremely understanding. And I think that's number one is having the courage to tell the truth. And then part of it is I was trying to understand what it meant too. Right. So I didn't know why my sister did that. And what happened. And the first thing you do, you start thinking about, did I do something wrong? Have I not been there? You know, that kind of thing. And there's a lot of self blame and a lot of doubt and a lot of questions. But I think to get on the right path is just, you have to be honest and you have to tell your employer what's going on, right. After that, honestly, it's a blur. I don't know if anybody asked me or anything. Maybe they didn't have to because I was so open about it. And I think the way that I approached it, believe me your life will be much easier, is to think of the suicide as a culmination of an illness. You know, not taking that as a personal blow in the sense that you are to blame. Or this is a family, you know, shameful thing. And those are the things that stop people from talking about it. But if you change your perspective this happened because it was a result of an illness that was not diagnosed and treated on time or correctly or whatever happened. Right. And so that's the way we need to start thinking about it. It's a clinical problem. It's a mental illness. I always say this now that I understand is when your child, or your loved one is talking about suicidal thoughts, that's a symptom right away. You gotta say, oh, we need to get you help. You know, like if someone says, I have this persistent pain in my stomach, it's like that. Equated to a physical illness. So that's how I want people to start thinking about it. It's a clinical illness, and so you gotta catch it. You gotta catch it. When the symptoms are in the suicidal thoughts area. Jesse Favre: What I'm hearing is mental health is health. Saroni Kundu: Yeah. Jesse Favre: Mental healthcare is healthcare. Saroni Kundu: It's healthcare. Yeah. Jesse Favre: It's healthcare. So we need to kind of change that script. Is there any other advice you'd give somebody who's trying to balance, like all of the family stuff with keeping up with your job. Saroni Kundu: Being in a company where you can take sick time, take your sick time, family sick time. If you're taking your son to checkups or your child to checkups, psychiatric, psychologist, whatever it is, it's like going to the doctor, right? So you gotta take your sick time and do it. A lot of people don't know this. When she passed on, there was of course bereavement. Talk to your HR because you never know what's out there to help you out. Jesse Favre: So asking for the help, asking for flexibility, asking for accommodations, like being willing to, yes. To say, I need this. We don't get to just do work at work and just do home at home. I had a conversation with somebody earlier this year that really had pushed back about me doing mental health training for corporate groups. And he said, you know, this really belongs in a provider's office, not in the workplace. And I thought, how strange you think this isn't in the workplace, because we carry this stuff with us. And so of course it's going to affect your productivity, your focus, your ability to like, and have good relationships with other people. How could it not? So now you are a business owner, you are leading a mental health practice. How have you taken what you've learned in your journey and applied this to how you lead this organization? Saroni Kundu: Well, it's been the most fulfilling experience ever, which is you know, another way of saying it, there's challenges and then there's victories. Growing the team from you know, single therapist to now 16 therapists, right? It's been a journey. And I feel like I used my personal experiences of navigating the system. I want to make sure I have all the different modalities, population segments. So diversity was very important. Just learning the different types of therapy. You can't just go for therapy. Like you have to know after some evaluation, do you need play therapy? Do you need art therapy? Do you need dialectical behavioral therapy? Do you need cognitive behavioral therapy? Like, which therapy will work for you? So for me, it was important that my clinic offered a variety of these modalities. And like I said, my technology background, making sure that I have the right technology platforms, and now even AI, all of those things to help my clinicians do their job, their best. Jesse Favre: Yeah. You are the right person for the job. You are the right person for the job. I think it's possible that we may have business owners, we may have leaders who are listening. What is the advice that you would give somebody who's leading a group or leading an organization in terms of supporting employees who are going through mental health challenges, or are caregivers who are supporting others with mental health challenges? Saroni Kundu: Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, my principle of leadership has always been servant leadership. And that is where you are working for your people and not the other way around. So even though I'm the owner or leader, whatever you want to call it, I always feel like I'm working for you guys. What do you guys need? ? It's the first thing, your mindset has to change. And if it's to do with mental health the big E, empathy, extremely important, putting yourself in their shoes. I understand as a leader, business leader, as a business owner, you also have to think about your business, your finances, because that's reality. But I can speak from personal experience that when you lead with empathy and you lead with heart and you really understand what's going on with your employee, and you provide that support, whether that's time off or work from home or whatever it is, that you gotta be listening. You know, what does that employee need? It pays back in dividends. It pays back in dividends because not only have you proven that you're a great leader, you're an empathetic leader, you know, people want to work for you. That employee will likely not want to ever leave because they're like, wow, this is great. I love this place. Makes me feel good, and makes me feel strong and makes me want to do my best work. I believe every person wants to do their best. And if they aren't able to, they won't feel good about themselves. And you need to address that. Jesse Favre: You mentioned the importance of filling your cup. How do you fill yours? Saroni Kundu: For me, it is dance because I do love to dance. And I know I fall into the same trap where I don't find the time. Because we are always doing so many things, but it's so important to have that moment whether it's in your day or your week, that you do something that you have a passion for you know, that's good for your mental health. A lot of people, especially women, have this idea that self-care is to go do your nails, or to go for a haircut, which is great. You do want to, you know, feel good like grooming yourself. But honestly, self-care, the biggest thing I would say is discipline. So how do you get intentional and discipline yourself to do something daily that's just for you. That's the most important part. If you promise yourself you're going to do something for yourself, you need to keep that promise for your future self, you really are. Jesse Favre: For you having an IT background, I feel like what I'm hearing is you need a software update. We need the 2025 update, which is hey. Saroni Kundu: Yeah. Upgrade your software. Jesse Favre: Yeah. Like discipline about self-care. You've got your gratitude practice. Saroni Kundu: Yeah. Human 2.0, it's got Human 2.0 downloaded. If you haven't yet. Jesse Favre: Exactly, on an app store near you, I'm wondering if we could actually go do a little dance exercise and you can kind of show me your world. Saroni Kundu: Yes, I would love that. Jesse Favre: Okay. So Saroni, you are going to be a dance teacher here. So explain to me what it is exactly that we're doing. Saroni Kundu: Okay. So this is creative dance, so it's nothing that's, you know, pre choreographed. So just letting your audience know. Jesse Favre: It's definitely not. Saroni Kundu: Completely spontaneous, but that's the whole idea. When I do dance reels, if you go see my social media, none of those are rehearsed. They're literally impromptu. Like, just put the music on and move. So here's what I want, Jesse, I asked you to give me your favorite poem, so I'll ask you to read it and then as you're reading it, I will express myself the way that I think, you know, what I'm feeling. I don't want you to copy me though. Challenge, you can get inspired. But this is your poem. So you have to think about what is inspiring to you and what's making you move with those words. So let's first tell us what the poem is. Beautiful. Jesse Favre: Sure. So I picked an excerpt from a book that's called My Life. This is an autobiography written by Isadora Duncan, who often is credited as one of the founders of modern Dance. I have been just obsessed with her for years. And the reason that I picked this outside of just loving Isadora Duncan is this passage is actually about leading with a sense of purpose. And I feel like since I met you, it was such a Duncan aspect of you. And so I thought this would be fun to kind of blend our worlds together. Saroni Kundu: So as you're reading it, just put the pauses in the places that you feel the pauses should be. Okay. And I'll try to move to it. Jesse Favre: Okay. I believe that in each life there is a spiritual line, an upward curve, and all that adheres to and strengthens this line is our real life. The rest is but as chaff falls from us as our souls progress, such a spiritual line is my art. Saroni Kundu: See, that's how I just moved to it. Jesse Favre: I tried not to look. I could see out of the corner of my eye. Saroni, I'm terrified. Saroni Kundu: Don't be terrified. Come on. Jesse Favre: So truly, like, so for people out there that are like, this is the most terrifying thing one could be asked to do, what is the advice that you would give me as I think through how to move? Saroni Kundu: Don't think. Jesse Favre: Don't think. Saroni Kundu: Feel. Okay. So I want you to close your eyes and breathe. Jesse Favre: I just fell over. Let's try this again. Okay. Saroni Kundu: Close your eyes, breathe in, breathe out. And I want you to feel the poem. Okay. You don't have to open your eyes if you don't want to. No one's watching. Okay. Jesse Favre: I think everybody's watching. Let's be totally clear. Okay. I'm just going to see what I feel. Saroni Kundu: Whatever you feel. Okay. I believe that in each life there is a spiritual line, an upward curve, and all that adheres to and strengthens this line is real life. The rest is but a chaff falling from us as our souls progress, such a spiritual line is my art. Oh, that's fantastic. That's exactly it. See, none of that was choreographed. Right. Jesse Favre: Clearly. Saroni Kundu: But that's what I mean. It's like you have to feel it. Jesse Favre: Okay. Well, Saroni, thank you so much for that dance lesson. It is amazing to me how just like a couple of moments out in nature or moving your body can just kind of ground you, center you. So that was incredible. Saroni Kundu: Yeah, it was. It was amazing. Jesse Favre: So I am very confident that people are going to want to get in touch with you and follow your work. So outside of reading your book, what are some of the ways that people can stay in touch? Saroni Kundu: Yeah. Well there's my website saronikundu.com. There's LinkedIn, you can find me there. Saroni Kundu. And in my website, there's my email phone number you can reach me. And also link to my book on Amazon. So yeah, there are many ways to reach me. Jesse Favre: And you're available for speaking gigs now too, correct? Saroni Kundu: Yes, I am. I'm available for speaking gigs. Jesse Favre: I do want to ask for a favor. This is your book? Hope Starts at Home. Can I get a book signing moment? Saroni Kundu: A hundred percent. Jesse Favre: That's my favorite author. Thank you. Saroni Kundu: Yeah, you're so sweet. Jesse Favre: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for being here. Saroni Kundu: Thank you. Jesse Favre: Thank you for continuing to be an advocate in this work. I think what you're doing is so inspiring and I'm just so glad that our paths crossed. So for everybody who's watching, please remember, take care of yourself, ask for help when you need it, and we will catch you next time Inside the Team.