S2: Episode 1

Jesse Favre: If you've experienced survivors guilt after a layoff, or you've been the person who's responsible for giving difficult news, this episode is for you. Welcome to Inside the Team with Jesse Favre, your go-to guide for sustainable, high performing work. This episode officially kicks off season two. So this season we will be expanding beyond the St. Louis region, bringing expert insight from across the country and around the world as we continue to explore what it takes to create healthier workplaces and stronger teams. Today's conversation focuses on a topic that affects employees and leaders alike: surviving a layoff. In just the first few months of 2026, millions of workers in the U.S. have already been affected by layoffs and job discharges, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And while much of the attention naturally goes to the people whose jobs have been eliminated. The folks who remain are often navigating really complex feelings, which could include relief, guilt, grief, uncertainty, and a whole lot of concern about what's about to happen next. It's difficult to even begin to think about sustainable, high-performing work under those circumstances. So today to help us explore this topic, I am joined by somebody with decades of experience helping organizations navigate change. Sherry Salvatore served as the director of human resources for both a college and a city before entering retirement. She was a beloved college instructor and workshop facilitator, and today she enjoys traveling, grandparenting, writing, and rekindling her study of multiple foreign languages. And while season two is all about expanding guests to people all around the world. We're gonna kick things off a little bit closer to home because today's guest happens to also be my mother. So, Sherry, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you here for the beginning of season two. Sherry Salvatore: Thank you, Jesse. And I would just like to say how very proud I am of the amazing work that you're doing. Jesse Favre: This is why I almost did not bring you on the show. But on on a serious note, you are the person that I know who probably has the most experience navigating this and really thinking about the human side of layoffs, also known as reduction in force or riff. So we'll use those terms interchangeably throughout. And I know for myself as a leadership trainer, I have worked with a lot of teams who have really struggled with even talking about this subject, because for the people who stay, a lot of times they feel guilty even saying that they're hard having a hard time because ultimately they still have their job. And so I really wanted to start today's conversation focusing on the people who stay. So in your experience, how have you seen people reacting to Riff? Sherry Salvatore: Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, I did experience numerous situations that resulted in reductions in force. And I think that A lot of attention is given to the people who lose their jobs, and rightly so. But I feel that the people who are left behind face a great deal of challenges that are largely left ignored. And in my experience, the first thing that I saw people normally relate to me after they found out that they got to keep their job is they were relieved, they were happy. And then quickly those feelings changed to guilt because they got to keep their job while their co-workers were no longer there. So what do you see these complex feelings leading to when you think about the behaviors of people who are still at an organization? Sure, sure. I think that people feel betrayed. They feel like their employer let them down. People have this false sense of security because they think that if they do their jobs and they're performing well, that their jobs are safe. And layoff doesn't work that way. You know, we cannot control the the finances of our employer. And so people feel betrayed, they lose trust in their employers, especially when the layoff or the riff is unexpected. They feel guilty, they feel like there's been an injustice. They feel isolated because sometimes they're told don't talk to people about the layoff. Or suddenly they are just experiencing a kind of a grief. Because they have lost people that they care greatly about. Jesse Favre: I was just gonna say I think for the relationships that are built at work, that really can't be overlooked because when you have a best friend at work, that's your go to person. That is perhaps the reason why you're still in your job. You know, if you look at research that comes from Gallup about employee engagement, that's one of the top twelve indicators that they look at. Does somebody have a best friend at work? And so, I actually had a video on TikTok about best friends at work and I was surprised at how many people were talking about losing a best friend at work, either because they transferred or there was a layoff and how difficult that was to even want to stay at that job. And then at the same time what I'm hearing from you is a lot of times there is this silence or an instruction not to talk about it. What do you think the effects are of being told that, you know, you've got this difficult experience, but please don't talk about this in meetings or with your coworkers? Right. 

Sherry Salvatore:
You know, I think about grief and the stages of grief. And in those stages, people may go from one step to the other in some sort of progression. But they may go one step forward and two steps backwards or they get stuck. And I think when we have these big emotions that we cannot talk about, we get stuck. And I've always believed that anger is a response we use when things happen to us that are out of our control. So if someone does something to us or to people that we care about, we put on anger as a way to gain control and feel that we are in charge of something. And I think that's why people get stuck in this state of anger after a reduction in force. And I think that if we carry anger with us on a daily basis, that stress impacts our mental health and our physical health. And in return, it's detrimental to the employer, because the employer no longer has highly functioning employees, morale goes down. And if and when that employer is able to recruit, people aren't necessarily going to want to work there. Because very often when people are angry, they talk live to their coworkers, their friends, their family. But in today's world, they take it to social media and that impact is very widespread. Jesse Favre: How interesting, all coming from this point of let's not talk about the initial feeling, which is hurt. Because when you don't address that, I think so often it does come out as anger, and then that anger does start to become contagious and spread. And like you said, the impact of that can be far beyond the immediate work team. This is also, you know, your your impression. And you know, it reminds me of that phrase, name it to tame it. You know, just this idea that when we can put words to our feelings and have the permission to do that, how powerful that can be for being able to think rationally about, okay, so what are the next steps? What are we gonna do going forward? But without that initial phase of checking in, it's really difficult. And so, you know, I would imagine from a leadership standpoint, that's one of the things that leaders probably need to think about. If we do have leaders who are listening, and given that you've been on the HR leadership side of things, I'm wondering if you've got any other advice that you would give employers for how to support people after a reduction in force. Sherry Salvatore: Sure. I think it's important first and foremost that people understand how a layoff would work before it might happen. You know, I think when people understand, for example, that layoff will happen in order of reverse seniority. It doesn't feel personal. It's kind of like being in the grocery store and the light goes off at the checkout counter because the checker is taking a break. You don't feel bad because you don't get the service you need while you're the last one in line. You under Well I mean very personal. Yeah. I think most people understand that the order is what's happening and it's not that the checker isn't going to check them out because they think that that person is a terrible shopper. And I think the same is true at work. If people understand the who, what, when, where, why of a layoff, it doesn't feel as personal. And I think when people feel that they have personally been attacked, even though they thought they were doing a great job, that's harder than if you understand it's the position or it's because you were the last person hired, and we keep the more senior employees. So I think having a clear set of rules regarding layoff, that's important. And then I think if you can create a safe place for people to talk about the layoff and what that means, that's important because people get very anxious. They don't know if the layoffs are coming back and if their job is next. So they're living in this constant state of turmoil because they don't know if they're safe at work. And you have to feel safe in order to highly perform. So that's hugely important. Employers need to express what is coming. And I think if they are able to work with the people that they have, they're going to set boundaries about what the performance expectations are, because people will think if all of those new duties are getting reallocated and they're all going to dump on my head, how can I possibly keep my work going and these new tasks? And what if I don't know how to do this? And what if I'm not good at these new duties because I've never done it before and nobody's trained me, I'm surely going to lose my job. So I think that employers have a responsibility to create a safe place for employees to express those kinds of concerns. And employers need to give reassurance about future training and what the expectations are. And we'll celebrate those little victories when you learn how to do something new. and I think that when employers invest in training, it tells the employees that. There is a reasonable assurance that there's a future with the company. Jesse Favre: You know, as you're talking, I was thinking about even outside of the workplace, how many difficult conversations people don't have because they just don't want to go there. It's like, you know, prenup. Nobody wants to talk about what would happen if there's a divorce. Or, you know, even with people that I've talked to recently about maybe caring for aging parents or grandparents. Nobody wants to have end of life conversations because it's so hard to think about that. And yet what I'm hearing is if we can confront some of these realities up front and have a plan in place, there is more certainty in the uncertainty. Sherry Salvatore: Yes. And I think it builds trust. When you can sit with someone and dump out all of the scary things, all of the unpleasant things and poke at them a little bit. And say, if this, then that, it takes some of the fear away. And I think if you can create again a safe place where people feel that they can thrive and grow, then I think you begin to rebuild trust and you may be able to restore your workplace. Jesse Favre: Agreed. And y you were sharing that idea of just all of the shifts that happen in job roles, in job responsibilities, and the concern about that. Are there any best practices for capturing those concerns and really making sure that they're addressed, whether that's through one on ones or some other system within your department or organization? Sherry Salvatore: Right. I wish I had a a one size fits all answer for that, Jesse, but I don't because in some situations, there's still trust with an employer. And when there's trust, then those one-on-one conversations can take place. But if you don't trust the people who are in management, you aren't going to go there and express your concerns because you may feel that that puts you right in line to be the next one to go. So in those types of situations, I think it's important to have employee assistance programs, to have counseling, someplace outside of the people who are working day to day together, because only then I think can people feel truly safe to express their fears and concerns. Jesse Favre: So you use that term employee assistance program and I that's a world that I'm very deeply invested in. I do employee assistance program trainings and I absolutely love the world of EAP. And also I know that there's a lot of people who have no idea what that is. And so I wanna make sure for anybody who's listening who's not familiar with this, please check out if your company has an EAP that they refer people to. Because an EAP in a lot of cases can get you and eligible family members access to mental health support. a lot of times there are additional resources. So sometimes you can talk to an attorney outside of employment law for a lot of EAPs. You might be able to get some help in terms of like talking to a financial expert, getting referrals for things. Sometimes there's coaching. There's all different things that can be involved in an EAP, but a lot of times people don't know about that. And I was recently looking at some data that showed that only about one in four HR professionals say that their managers are trained to link people to mental health support. And so I also see that as one of the gaps in this area, you know, not just thinking about the immediate of, okay, how are we going to communicate? But for the people who are still here, how do we make sure that they're linked to resources? Because I was just talking to a group of leaders yesterday and somebody said to me, I don't want to play therapist with my team. I don't feel like that should be my role. And I said, I agree with you. You know, and I think in a situation like this where somebody may share all these complex and uncomfortable feelings, you might have that feeling as a leader of, okay, I I should probably help. and so the question is, what do you do here? So I think your point of linking people to resources is a really good way to stay within a proper lane as a leader while also making sure that people have access to the support that they need. Sherry Salvatore: Absolutely, Jesse. I think that's one of the number one things I heard from supervisors is I'm not qualified to deal with my employee who is feeling depressed and angry and betrayed and all of those sorts of feelings. And for the most part, I would agree with them. The supervisor's job is not to diagnose. In fact, you want to stay far away from diagnosing. You want to, as you said, link. You want to let them know, hey, if you're having any troubles with the layoff or if you are struggling with how you're feeling, either physically or mentally, here's a list of resources that we have available to you. And I encouraged supervisors to provide resources. Before they were aware that people were having issues. Because again, people aren't necessarily going to tell you how they're feeling. And so many people are very skilled at masking. Or they just put on that mask of anger and they carry that around and they smile at the supervisor and then feel very differently when the person is no longer in sight. Jesse Favre: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, a lot of the groups that I work with, they will tell me if they have, you know, made it through the layoff, they're still there. They've still got their workplace besties now who've just been laid off and they're still talking to them and a lot of times they're asking, Hey, what's going on? And they don't know what to say. They have no clue how to proceed. they're being told not to talk. They have a best friend that they want to connect with in those situations, what would you advise somebody to do to help support that person? Sherry Salvatore: The only way that you get past missing a friend is to catch up with them, to stay in touch, and that friend will feel supported if that's what happens. So maybe you continue to reach out to them at home after hours and say, Let's get together on Friday. We don't have to talk about work. But if I can be helpful in maybe helping you job search, I'd love to do that. Or if you want to practice interviewing, I would be happy to help you. You have to tell me what you need. And I, as your friend, want to provide that for you. But even if that person says, no, I'm not ready to meet up, it's too hard, I'm still grieving, I'm still upset, I don't know what to do, keep asking. Because as we know, people sometimes feel very isolated and they can get comfortable in that isolation, but it's not good for them. And so as a friend, you want to encourage them to get out, to keep that friendship going, and to celebrate with them when anything good comes along. Jesse Favre: Yeah. And you know, one of the things that I keep seeing on LinkedIn is a lot of times people will make an announcement that they were affected by a riff. They'll say that they're looking for work. And one of the things that I love is when their colleagues jump on and they reshare those posts. And they say, Hey, you know, just raising awareness to my network, this person is amazing. and really trying to kind of use their platform or their reach to be able to support that person in the next steps. Because like you said in the beginning, this is not personal. there's so much that's outside of your control and I'm sure for a lot of people it does feel like a failure. It feels like they did something wrong. when in fact these are often highly, highly skilled, wonderful employees. and this was something that just w was not within their control. So yeah. Sherry Salvatore:
Absolutely. And I think as an employer, it is absolutely job one when a layoff is announced to provide those people who are impacted by the RIF with a letter of recommendation. Make sure those people get something from you that says, This was a great employee and they are no longer working for us through no fault of their own. Their job performance was exemplary and we are happy to provide a reference. And coworkers can do the same. They can say, hey, we have written up all of these letters of recommendation for you. What else can we do to help? Jesse Favre: Well, so for somebody who is still there, you know, at the company after a layoff, what do you feel like is the one thing that they need to hear that maybe nobody has told them yet? Sherry Salvatore: I think it's important that they hear we understand that this can feel overwhelming. And we want to have conversations with you about the reallocation of the duties that have been left behind following the RIF. And we need to get your input so that we can make these decisions together. Jesse Favre: So what I feel like I'm hearing is this is not dumping this information on them. It's saying this is a back and forth. Sherry Salvatore: Yes. Jesse Favre: There's nothing about this that is a monologue. Sherry Salvatore: Yes. Because remember when the layoff happened, it happened to the employees. Right? And they felt like it happened to them, not with them. There was no back and forth. There was no interaction. They had no say. So now in order to rebuild trust and to help these employees thrive, they need to have a part in molding the shape of the future workplace. Jesse Favre: Hmm. Yeah, I feel like in that I'm just hearing like you've got agency in this. Yes. Your voice is important in this. Yes. And not in a performative way, in a literally “we need your insight here to help shape this path forward.” And you know, I know for you having been the person who's delivered this difficult news, I've witnessed that this is not easy to go through. And so in the event that we do have leaders on or we've got folks in HR listening, what would you recommend that people do to take care of themselves when they are the ones who are facilitating these conversations? Sherry Salvatore: You know, that's an interesting question. I used to say, if there's bad news that has to be delivered, let me do it because it will break my heart. And it did. you know, I remember at one meeting I had a bag with me and I had Kleenex and chocolate in the bag, and the employees are like, is that for us? I said, No, that's for me, but I'll share with you, you know, anything that you need because it is heartbreaking. And so as we tell the employees who are impacted that we want to help them move forward, we also have to tell ourselves that. And I think self-care is absolutely critical for the people who have to deliver this news. So for me, that meant I had to get my sleep. I had to eat well. I had to take walks. I had to talk with my friends and my family so that I didn't try to carry this around all by myself and act like it was no big deal or that I had to be so strong because I didn't. I had to be compassionate and I had to be helpful and I had to provide resources and I had to offer my assistance to not just the people who left, but to the people who were left behind. And I also had to take care of myself. And sometimes that meant I would kind of upskill myself. I would learn new things that I could do. And then I would replay what happened, trying not to replay the conversations over and over and over. But I would replay what happened and I would try to think, if I had it to do again, how could I do that better? And that gave me a sense of feeling that when it happened again, because it always did, I would be at my best to help the people around me. Jesse Favre: Well when you mention upskilling, I think one of the things that's important for people to even think about for context is you were attempting to upskill in this area at a time that if I remember correctly, when you went through your masters program you could barely find any research or recommendations around emotional well being at work. 

Sherry Salvatore:
True. Jesse Favre: So it's it's kind of amazing to me to be at this point of, you know, now making that the focus of my work, but seeing that these conversations are happening and they're happening a lot more often. And so hopefully this episode makes it a little bit easier for people who are in the position that you are in. and of course for people who have been laid off or who are still at the company. And really trying to think about, you know, what does this path forward look like? So with that, I do want to share with folks who are listening. I said in the beginning that you went into retirement, and that is mostly true. And also you still have some HR consulting that you're doing. So for folks who want to get in touch with you, what's the best way that they can reach out? 
Sherry Salvatore: Thanks, Jesse. I do have an email, SFsalvatore@outlook.com. So people could drop me an email and I would be happy to help or just be a sounding board if they need some consulting to discuss how to get through some of these workplace challenges. Jesse Favre: Okay, so folks can find you on email, but they can also find you on Amazon and not for the reason that they're expecting. So why are you on Amazon right now? Sherry Salvatore: Well I wrote a children's book. It's called Wherever Love Is. And I have always loved children. So yes, I do have a book on Amazon called Wherever Love Is. Jesse Favre: Okay, perfect. Well, I just want to thank you so much for kicking off season two. And just to close this, I wanna make sure that everybody is remembering if you are experiencing survivors guilt, it is important to feel your feelings. It is important to reach out and offer your support to the people who are directly laid off and make sure to catch us next time here on Inside the Team.